Welcome to the Sync podcast, where we
explore the value of an inclusive approach
in the way we think,
work, engage with our communities and
workplaces.
That the meaning of inclusion,
contrary to what many may believe, is
about leaving no one behind.
I'm your host, Nicole
Piggott, and today we have a very special
guest,
Dr. Marissa Levine.
Marissa is the Managing
Director of Envision Wellbeing, LLC, where
she focuses on designing communities where
everyone
can thrive.
She recently retired from the University
of South Florida, where she was a
professor of
public health practice and the director of
the Center for Leadership in Public Health
Practice.
With a background in family medicine,
academia, and state government, including
serving as Virginia's
state health commissioner, Dr.
Levine brings a wealth of knowledge on
leadership, public health,
and systems thinking for population health
improvement.
Welcome, Dr.
Marissa Levine.
Welcome to the show, Dr.
Marissa.
Thank you so much, Nicole.
I'm honoured to be here, to be with you.
As you said,
my good friend.
And I'm just grateful that we have that
connection.
I know we'll talk a lot about
relationships, so I'm really honoured to
have this relationship in this time with
you.
Thank you.
Well, thanks.
Listen, just for the audience's benefit,
Marissa and I were on the board of the
National Safety Council together.
And when you talk about people who connect
almost immediately,
Marissa and I had the opportunity to share
our experiences and we could see that we
were kindred
spirits from the get-go.
So, Marissa, let's allow the audience in
on why you're such a fantastic human
being and why I love you.
You've had an incredible career.
And I think most people, when they
graduate
from medicine, pursue sort of the
traditional path of medicine.
And you've taken an interesting route
that has allowed you to influence policy,
also influence, you know, education and
how people are
learning about medicine.
And you've taken a route that sort of
brings the two disciplines together,
public health, policy, and medicine.
So, share with us your journey.
Sure.
As you said, I was going on that
traditional medical route.
And I have to say that medical school
was really challenging because it was
about memorizing lots of facts, lots of
stuff.
But I also was in
medical school in the Bronx, Bronx, New
York, when the AIDS epidemic started, you
know, before we actually
knew what it was.
And that was an amazing experience as a
medical student to see what was happening
not
only with individuals who were
experiencing AIDS, but the whole
healthcare system and, for that matter,
all of New York City.
So, I had some really amazing
opportunities to be part of that and
observe
at a time where there was a lot of
uncertainty.
And I'll never forget this one situation
where I was
doing a clinical nutrition rotation.
But the woman I was working with was doing
research on these young
African-American men who were experiencing
Kaposi sarcoma, which was one of the
earliest indicators
of this disease.
And so, we were actually drawing blood on
them.
And I was all gowned and gloved in the
ICU.
And in walks the infectious disease team.
And I'm looking at them.
I'm saying, okay, here I am.
We don't
know what we're dealing with.
I'm gowned and gloved.
And you have no protection.
And it was just amazing
to me, kind of a total lack of awareness
of the bigger picture.
So, I began to realize that I was one of
those
people who looked at the context, who
could see the connections and ask
questions.
And the second thing
that happened during my medical career was
that my brother, my young brother, got
very ill with an
autoimmune disease.
It took a long time to figure out what was
going on.
And I was poised to be a
subspecialist, you know, the typical New
York City medical student route.
But again, I stepped back and
observed that although my brother was
getting the best care possible, nobody was
in any way looking
at the family.
So, I actually got very interested in
family medicine, which was relatively new
at the
time.
And again, it was about seeing the person
in context of the family, the community,
and in this
case, the medical system.
And I decided to go that route.
And, you know, it's been a journey ever
since.
It's been unpredictable, really.
I didn't expect to have all these amazing
experiences.
But I'm
really grateful, because it led me into a
community perspective.
And when I was in practice as a family
doctor, I just became so enamored with the
concept of what is it that really helps
people to be healthy
and well.
And I, I fortunately realized that my role
was very minimal, I could certainly help
people,
and I needed to be there with and for
them.
But it was much more about whatever else
happened in their
lives, and particularly in the community.
So I got very involved in community, I
became part of the local
board of health.
And it was at the time in the 90s, when
the healthy communities movement started,
which was a
precursor for a lot of what we talked
about now with social determinants of
health.
But I'm also from the New York
City area, 911 happened.
So I said, I have to find a way to give
back.
And because of my involvement with public
health at
that time.
And the fact that I was trying to get an
MPH through Hopkins new internet based
program,
which was global, I ended up taking a job
at local public health, and I spent 16
years in medical
practice.
And then I spent another 16 years in
governmental public health, first in rural
Virginia,
and then kind of working my way up the
ladder.
And I had I again, I was just very
fortunate,
I had this amazing opportunity to be asked
to be the state health commissioner.
During a time when we had
already dealt with H1N1, we had Ebola, we
had Zika.
And we had a real interest actually in
population
health, which is what I saw the
opportunity.
So I was able to help lead an effort in
Virginia to create
what we call the plan for well being.
And it really opened my eyes to this whole
idea of well being and
thriving and what communities could do,
and the role of government to do that.
So I just feel very
fortunate to have had those.
But I think coming at it from a systems
perspective, and also appreciating
that we have to work together that our
connections matter, and that we actually
live in communities of
abundance, really changed my whole
mindset.
And that's what I worked on when I left
government and tried
to help the next generation of leaders.
Because I because I saw that leadership
was just so critical
to all of this work.
Right.
That's the short story.
There's a lot more to unpack.
But I'm just very blessed really to have
had that
experience.
Well, I find it and this is, I think, one
of the reasons why we connected from the
get go.
One of the
things that really strikes me about you,
Marissa, that is, I would say unusual in
medicine, because I was on the
board of directors at the University
Hospital here in Montreal, and the sense
of humility that you bring
to medicine, and a sense that as a
physician, you are a part of an equation,
you are a part of a holistic
approach to getting to solutions.
And as opposed to having all the answers,
which a lot of us who are of a
certain age, we grew up in a generation
where you look to doctors to sort of being
being all omniscient,
you know, they knew everything, they, you
didn't question your physician, you
didn't, physicians didn't look at
things holistically, they looked at things
a lot of, in a lot of cases through the
lens of drugs.
And, and not looking at
family history, not looking at
environment, not looking at other factors.
So I think that's one of the things that's
one of the things that I did want to
unpack, and I was going to unpack it
later, but I can't help myself.
In the current
situation, you know, having felt almost
like a calling to public health, because
it's almost the sense that I get from you,
there was a
series of circumstances that sort of led
to this push to play a role in the
circumstances that have such an influence
on
people's health and well being in our
communities.
What do you think about our what's
happening now in the current sort of
shift to towards sort of skepticism about
truths in medicine, truths in science,
pseudoscience, I call it pseudoscience,
because it's not based on any
facts.
So what are your thoughts on what's
happening now?
Yeah, it's very challenging time because
information flows so rapidly.
And in a sense, everybody, quote, can be
an expert.
The challenge is
that the difficulty we have as individuals
and as societies is dealing with
uncertainty.
And I think what really helped me in the
90s, which I
feel like was my golden age, feel like was
my golden age, because of the
opportunities I had, I was, I was in
practice running a residency program, and
in the leadership role in our healthcare
system.
Right.
And I had an opportunity to do kind of
some of the traditional trainings.
But I realized that the MBA type training
for the healthcare system didn't make a
lot of sense in the in the complex, crazy
world that I lived in.
So I was really fortunate to meet up with
a group of people who were
trying to figure out trying to figure out
how this new science of complexity might
relate to the work and the arena that we
were in.
And I actually heard a futurist by the
name of Leland Kaiser, who just opened my
eyes again, to the fact that we have to be
able to create, innovate, and be open to
learning, because the world is just
becoming more and more complex.
And that flies in the face of dealing with
uncertainty.
We're afraid of uncertainty.
So we're afraid of uncertainty.
So we often will grab on to something that
sounds good.
And people, there are people who take
advantage of that.
because we don't, we want some certainty
in an uncertain world.
The world is always changing.
We have to appreciate that.
And I think in those in leadership have to
help hold some of that anxiety, anxiety
about uncertainty, but not mislead people.
And I'm afraid that we have people who are
intentionally misleading for personal
gain, for political gain, because it
sounds good.
And it somehow it gives them an
opportunity.
And I think that's important.
I honestly think that's important.
That is not a caring, connected way of
being, which to me is the essence.
It really is about care and connection in
uncertain times.
That's how we get through.
We can't do this alone.
And we're not alone.
But there are many people who want us to
believe we are.
We also have these information bubbles
now, which are really challenging, because
it used to be that you could always direct
people to a trusted source.
But now, if you're in an information
bubble, you're a trusted source, so to
speak.
It's really hard sometimes to penetrate
that.
And you talked about humility.
I've learned a lot about humility.
And humility has always been seen as a
weakness.
But there is something, I think Adam Grant
calls it competent humility.
I really love this term.
And BrenƩ Brown talks about humility as
being open to learning.
So in these complex environments, these
uncertain environments, the one thing we
have to be able to do is to be open to
learn, act, learn, act, and do it
iteratively, because nobody has a manual
for what we need to do.
So that's what I've learned over the
years.
And we need to do it together.
So inclusion and diversity matter, because
we need all of these perspectives to
inform the larger picture.
And we also have to make sure that we're
actually helping everybody advance, to
your point, you know, not leaving anybody
behind.
And I think the thing that keeps me going
is, actually, I know we can do this.
But do we have the will?
And do we have the right mindset?
Can we get past the idea that we're
nothing more than machines and cogs in the
wheel, to the fact that we're actually
living beings, intimately connected?
We have an amazing opportunity, and lots
of opportunities, and we live in a world
of abundance, not scarcity, but many would
have us believe the pie is limited, we
have to hold on or get your pie for me.
And that, you know, you're just nothing
more than a cog in the wheel.
I think that does everybody a disservice.
And I'll just end this part by saying,
over my lifetime, I've realized, the best
teacher here is nature.
Nature has figured out how life can
sustain over millennia.
And indigenous peoples already knew this.
So if we could just be open, if we could
be humble enough to learn from nature, we
could actually figure out how to be, how
to live in harmony, not only with nature,
but with each other, and even with
ourselves.
And I just, I've become a student of
indigenous wisdom, because if we could
learn what has already been learned, and
then apply it to the current context, wow,
what opportunities would we have?
And people could appreciate that they're
part of something larger, greater, and I
really think that will, that will really
get to the root of a lot of the mental
health substance abuse, and even the
loneliness epidemic that some cause.
But it requires caring and connection.
And I think we need leaders who foster
those conditions who support that
development and are willing to be humble
enough to learn how to learn together, act
together and keep doing that.
That's the opportunity.
And, and I think public health can play a
key role in that, which is what led me to
the field.
Well, there's no question that public
health can play a really key role in that.
And I think one of the things that I think
people need to take away from this
conversation is that humility is actually
demonstrating even more self confidence
than, you know, sort of feeling like you
have all the answers and that you're not
open to learning.
It actually allows you, you have enough
confidence in yourself that you have
enough confidence in yourself that you
have the ability to say, I am open to
learning more and to growing and to
feeling that there's something else that
others can bring to even augment my
understanding of the world.
And I think it's, I find as I embrace that
not knowing and that curiosity and that
desire to learn.
And I learned from people who are 20 years
old, 10 years old, three years old.
I learned from people who are 90 years
old.
And what I really love about being at this
stage of my life is I have something to
learn from everyone.
Like there's, there's something to be
gained from interactions with so many
people.
Is that what caused you to, to move from
academia into Envision Wellbeing and
founding Envision Wellbeing?
What prompted you to sort of make that
shift?
So I came to a point in my life where I
had the means to come out from below the
bureaucracies.
I've lived, I've worked in lots of
bureaucracies, the medical healthcare
system, state government, and then
academia, all very significant
bureaucracies.
And, you know, I've, for the past seven
years, I've been teaching leadership,
first to public health people, and then to
folks in community and trying to do that
in
partnership.
And so I've realized that the hero leader
model, which is our mindset, you know,
the, the, usually the white male who comes
in on the, on the horse, the white horse,
the knight, to solve the problems has all
the answers.
There may be a place for that individual,
but not for these complex issues that
we're dealing with, not for where
communities need to go, not where
government and societies in general.
We really need all the brain power.
We really need to help develop other leaders.
And, and the kind of leadership that we've
been teaching is about developing others
to reach their potential.
The fact that everybody has an essence,
which is what makes us individuals.
And we want everybody to develop that
potential from their essence.
And that the role of a leader is
developmental.
So that's
very different.
It's very different than the leader who
comes in with all the answers, because in
that case, it's only as good as that
individual.
And if you're not humble, if you come in
with hubris, I guarantee you're going to
make lots of mistakes, and there'll be
huge unintended consequences that might
have been prevented.
So I'm really interested in this, what we
call a regenerative approach.
I didn't make up the term of regenerative
leadership, but I've been trying to apply
it into the public health and the
community improvement space.
Because it's, it really is about
appreciating the system, coming at it from
a positive perspective, with a growth
mindset that, you know, a can do attitude,
looking at the opportunity, and working
from our assets, the essence we all bring,
and then doing that together, and trying
to do that in harmony, build systems that
are in better harmony, not only with each
other, but with the ecosystem, the larger
ecosystem.
And that means that regenerative leaders
make better decisions because they're more
informed, they're collaborative.
And I really believe that the leadership
that emerges from that activity is
actually the regenerative leadership.
It's not about the person.
It's an emergent property of a process of
collaboration based on generative
relationships, the kind of relationships
where both parties are better off.
and a sense of, we have a
have a lot to offer, we can build from our
positives, and we can do this.
If we apply ourselves, if we take what you
said, if we take our curiosity, and we're
open to learn, and we learn from our
actions, and we keep doing that together.
It's not about somebody benefiting from the
rest, it's about all of us moving forward
Creating an equitable and thriving
environment. So that's what really excited
me about the past seven years
And I'm trying to take this now to use
that, use my, me, my resources, and try to
spread this knowledge.
And the nice thing is, and the nice thing
is, there are a lot of people out there
now who are aware of this, and who can
spread it themselves.
So I don't have to do it all myself.
I'm asking others to do their part.
And I invite people to learn about this.
There's, it's not that there's a specific
way to be a regenerative leadership
leader.
It's about, we can co-create this, and
it's very context dependent.
That's the whole thing is, you have to
define it for the context in which you
find yourself.
So there's a fluidity to it.
It's something that-
It's an adaptability.
Exactly.
Adaptability.
I love that.
It's all about adaptability, and it's
about creating a space for that to happen,
because you don't just create, think about
organizations, you don't just create in
organizations, especially rigid ones that,
you know, where failure is feared.
But can you create a space, some people
call it safe space, talk about
psychological safety.
It's an adaptive space, a space within
which you can try things and learn and
move forward.
And that's why organizations that have
figured this out, are more likely to
advance, because they don't fear failure,
they learn from it.
And in fact, that's the only way to
advance, right?
Exactly.
It's funny, it brings to mind, and I can't
believe that I'm quoting one of these sort
of big business thinkers, but it brings to
mind something that I read years ago, and
I'm paraphrasing.
And it was the CEO of Marriott, who said,
you know, often we treat failure as
catastrophic, and then we reject it.
So we reject people who fail.
And of course, that creates a culture of
fear around failure.
And he made a comment saying, if someone
has failed in my organization, I've just
paid dearly for a learning, a terrific
opportunity to learn for my organization.
Why wouldn't I take that person who's just
acquired this skill and keep that person
there so that they can bring that in my
organization can actually benefit from
their investment in that failure, versus
rejecting that person and someone else's
benefiting from my investment in that
person's failure.
The other thing is, to me, learning,
growing innovation, new ideas, if you
don't create an environment where people
are fearless to go out there and try and
fail, you create this environment where we
get very comfortable with the status quo,
and we get very sort of stuck in one
place.
But it certainly does not create
environments where we leave no one behind.
It creates very small, very exclusive, may
I say, environments that actually promote
this notion of have and have not, in
crowd, out crowd.
Someone who's playing by the rule book
that's been established by whoever has
the power to make those rules.
And if you're outside of that, well,
you're, you are somehow subversive, you're
somehow, you know, not valued.
And so I love the, I think why
regenerative leadership spoke to me is
that it is the essence of what it means to
act inclusively.
It's, it's the essence of taking the
concept of inclusion and actually applying
it in the way you, you, you act and behave
both in organizations, but also in our
communities and in society.
So let's come back in so one of the things
that I, I did want to explore more, and I
think it, it stems from a conversation you
and I had, which is, how are we going to
act and really start to spread the word of
what regenerative leadership means, how
are we going to mobilize in our current
context, because this current context
could actually cause you to freeze.
And that to me is the biggest danger and
the biggest regret I would have about
this, this moment, this actually should be
a moment of mobilization.
And so how do we help to mobilize in this
current context around public health?
Yeah, that's a great thing that, and the
challenge actually is that many public
health people are in a freeze state, because
there, there's so much uncertainty about
what's going to happen, especially those
in governmental positions.
So I really think that this is the time
for grassroots activity, for people in
community to take charge and remember the
power that they have that has honestly
been abdicated, abdicated not only to
local officials, but others.
And I, and I really think that, and I
really think that people coming together,
we're seeing it in town halls, but in any
way you can, that makes sense in your
community, this is a time to come together
and ask good questions.
I always thought the best role for a
regenerative leader is to be ready to be
ready to ask challenging questions.
And there are lots of them depending upon
the situation.
But again, it goes back to first challenge
the mindset, challenge what leadership
means. It's not about that hero model and
it's not about having all the answers.
So I think the leader needs to think about
the questions they ask, and here's where
the positive approach, using appreciative
inquiry, which some of your listeners may
be familiar with.
The idea that the idea that we don't have
to just focus on the negative and the
problems, that the real opportunity comes
from dreaming about what the aspirational
future might be.
What is it that we want?
So this is the beginning of a conversation
at a community level, or even at a
neighbourhood level.
What do we want our neighbourhood, what do
we want our community to look like if
everybody were to thrive?
So you, you know, it's about dreaming and
then stepping back.
And instead of saying, what are the root
causes of the problems we have?
What are the root causes of that success?
And given that, what could we do now?
What's a step we could take now to get
there?
Leaders could take an appreciative
approach.
Appreciative inquiry is about asking
questions.
So one of the questions I love is, if you
move from the machine thinking, you know,
we're just cogs in the wheel, to the fact,
oh my gosh, we're alive and we're part of
this huge living system here on earth that
we're all dependent upon.
We're dependent upon clean air, clean
water, good food, for example.
So what would you do differently in
whatever context you were, if you saw
yourself, your neighbourhood, your
community, your organization as a living
entity?
How would it be different?
And then even asking the question, okay,
what is it, what does a living system need
to thrive?
And what's really interesting that there
are people asking this question now, and
there's some really interesting answers
coming out.
Fritjof Capra is this physicist, great
systems thinker who, with a biologist,
wrote the book, The Systems View of Life.
And he's still, you know, he's in his 80s,
but he's still evolving his thinking.
He's identified a number of key
characteristics of living systems that I
think are really important because smart
businesses are picking up on this.
The first is that all living systems are
networked.
And they're not, that's not just a
structure.
It could be, you know, a process.
So agile organizations already know this
with networks.
And there are lots of different kinds of
networks.
So can you create the robust networks?
Again, remember, networks mean people are
connected one to another through a
relationship.
And we want those to be positive or
generative relationships.
And how do you make it robust so that if
one relationship falls apart, others fill
in, so to speak?
I mean, as a physician, I can tell you
that's how our body is organized.
It's very robust, very robust, lots of
redundancy.
So networks are important.
We regenerate.
Okay, well, what does that mean?
That means that we've got a pattern.
Each of us is our, you know, who we are.
We have this pattern.
But every molecule changes instantaneously
all the time.
We bring in food, we bring in water, we
bring in nourishment, air.
And that means that the structures
actually change, but the pattern stays.
So living systems regenerate, we
metabolize.
And on a larger scale, what would an
organization, what would a neighbourhood
need to regenerate?
And information is part of that.
Good flow of information, of quality
information, meaningful information.
And the other is creativity.
Because nature needs creativity to
advance, to improve, to sustain.
That's what evolution is all about.
This is why diversity matters, because
creativity comes from wherever.
So creativity for human systems is
creativity of ideas, and we need all that
brain power.
And then the last major one, and he has
others, is intelligence.
That we all have an intelligence, and we
want our collaborations, be they
organizations or otherwise,
to be intelligent.
Meaning that if you have a hero leader
answering all the questions, it's only as
smart as that person.
But could you have a larger intelligence,
not a groupthink, because groupthink means
we're stuck.
But in that intelligence, now we have to
ask in human systems, what is required to
share our experiences
And our ideas based on what's happening,
you know, and what comes over again and
again, because I've, I've really been
pouring over the leadership literature,
trying to understand what's common to
many, because there are many leadership
theories.
Underlying all of this is respect and
trust.
And this is the, probably the biggest
problem happening in the United States
right now with the current processes,
there's been a total absence of respect
for basic human dignity in the process.
So, so if you're going to be regenerative
as an individual organization, as a
leader, you start with respect, and
indigenous communities knew this, respect,
you know, letting people be seen, heard,
and valued.
And that starts with yourself,
self-respect, and then, what are the
principles you're going to operate under,
trust is a critical one.
And what, what I also see commonly is it's
not just any kind of trust, it's a
vulnerability trust.
It's, if I'm in a leadership role, I'm not
some machine superhero leader.
I'm a human being, which means I'm not
perfect.
It doesn't mean I'm incompetent.
No.
It's also a competent humility, just like
we talked about before, but it's, the
vulnerability is, because I know that we
are connected, you have my back, we care
about each other.
Now, when we challenge each other's ideas,
we're not challenging each other
personally, right?
And you're not challenging to bring you
down and to diminish you.
Exactly.
No, it's a growth.
It's actually challenging for you to grow
and evolve.
And because I have respect for not just
you, but the ideas that you bring to the
table, and if you have that context of
trust, when I challenge you, you
automatically are thinking, you are
challenging me for my betterment.
You are not challenging me to bring me
down.
And I think, you know, you bring up a
point that we encounter in organizations
and in leadership and in the ecosystems
and dynamics within organizations around
this sense of how we reward behaviour in
organizations.
And that can either be materially through
bonuses, money, whatever it can be through
advancement, it can be through whatever
society sort of is put as a label of an
indicator of success.
And unfortunately, what I've observed, and
I really think that's where regenerative
leadership and we really need to shift the
thinking, is that in a lot of
organizations, we actually reward the me,
myself, and I thinking.
The I am sort of a monolith and by myself,
I can, you know, demonstrate excellence
and not realizing the value of actually
someone who's able to extract excellence
from around them.
What the power in that versus someone who,
by themselves is demonstrating excellence,
that to me is what we need to be rewarding
in our communities, in our workplaces.
And the upside of that, when I talk about
diversity, equity and inclusion, which
have become epithets, I just, I still try
to wrap my mind around how something as
uplifting as the notion of diversity,
diversity of thought, diversity, it's what
brought us to where we are evolutionarily
speaking.
Like, we've embraced diversity as a
strength, equity to me, when did equity,
the notion of a balance and treating
people fairly become something that we,
you know, we are trying to move away from.
And the notion of inclusion is that safe
space to me.
That's like what you talked about in terms
of that safe space.
So, to me, what I think we, we really need
to get the conversation around in the, in
our workplaces is the upside, there's
nothing but upside to this.
There's only upside to creating
environments where people can bring their
best selves, creating environments where
there's trust and people are generating
ideas and challenging what you're
thinking.
And I think that the end result is always
better, in my opinion.
Yeah, what I love about the regenerative
approach is it's not political.
It actually, in my mind, kind of rises
above the politics.
It says we talked about in the beginning,
it's about development of people.
It will not work if the leader is
egocentric in their leadership approach.
So, it does really require humility.
And many people talk about moving from an
egocentric leadership to an eco-centric,
when you are thinking about the larger
system.
And I think the other piece of this is
about developing others.
And, you know, that's been really
important.
I learned that lesson, fortunately, a long
time ago.
I mentioned the futurist I listened to.
He mentioned a book at the time called Out
of Control by Kevin Kelly, who was the
editor of Wired Magazine at the time.
It just started me on this path, but it
helped me realize that you actually, as a
leader, have more control.
Not that you need to control others, but
you actually have more control, maybe, of
the situation by giving up control.
Meaning that you're helping others, you're
recognizing others.
Colin Powell wrote a great book, which
demonstrated that he understood this by
lifting up those who are at lower ranks
and letting them take front and center to
demonstrate their skill.
And it was also insightful because he
knew, if they didn't know what they were
doing, that we had a bigger problem.
But for the most part, they were the
experts.
So I just think this is, this only happens
if we can get past the idea that we live
in this dog-eat-dog world.
And that we remember that Darwin wasn't
telling us that survival of the fittest
mean I can only be advanced at your
expense.
That's the competitive mindset that exists
today.
And what I love to talk about is, there's
nothing wrong with competition, but it
needs to occur in a collaborative
umbrella.
That it's a, some people have called it
collab-a-tition or co-op-a-tition for
cooperation.
But it's the idea that we want win-win
competition.
I want to get better because I know when I
get better, if I do it well, I'll bring
you along with me.
And we've seen some great examples of
that, but the general mindset is not that.
So we do have to help people feel
comfortable with that approach.
And I have to tell you that we've
introduced this positive mindset,
appreciative approach throughout Florida
in the public health arena.
I really think it helped these leaders get
through COVID because they, you know, when
you focus only on the negative, on the
problems, it gets very, you get into the
very negative space.
It's depressing, especially with the
issues that are being dealt with in public
health, very challenging.
And at that time, the pandemic.
Also, when you couple that with fear.
Yeah, fear and fear, especially if you
have politicians who are promoting fear as
their means of power grabbing.
But we introduced the appreciative
approach to strategic planning called
SOAR.
So instead of SWAT, which focuses
strengths, weakness, opportunities, and
threat, which is not, you know, it has its
place.
But we're really good as human beings.
We're really good at criticizing ourselves
and others.
And we get stuck in the weaknesses and the
threats.
When you take the SOAR approach,
strengths, opportunities, aspirations, and
results, results are important in our day
and age.
What we've heard back is that the whole
attitude changes, the whole environment
changes, the energy levels change.
And I even saw this in Virginia when I was
commissioner.
The best story I have is when I took over,
the maternal child health staff presented
to me their infant mortality plan.
And I said, why would I want to plan for
infant mortality?
Don't we want babies to thrive?
And I said, could we rename it the
thriving infants plan?
And by the way, let's think about how we
present the data in the language we use.
Could we change it instead of death rates?
Could we make it infant thriving rates?
In other words, flip it around.
Right.
And we presented this to parents in March
of Dimes sessions.
And I was blown away with how engaging it
was, how engaged they were, how positive
it was.
And then I came to realize through talking
with experts, communication experts at
Harvard and elsewhere,
that a lesson that we had learned in
public health and maybe elsewhere is
positive messages are better received.
Surprise.
So this is important because if we want to
engage in our organizations, in our
neighbourhoods and in communities,
let's focus on the positive, not because
we're ignoring the negative, but that's
how we come together.
And let's aspire to a shared vision that
is based primarily on respect, agreed upon
principles, a clear purpose.
And we take this regenerative approach,
which appreciates the fact that we're
living beings and is based on caring and
connection.
So I don't think it's rocket science, but
I do think it has to be co-created by
people in the spaces that they are in.
And I can't tell you how to do it in your
space, but there are some basic principles
that I think can help.
You know, what you're saying resonates so
profoundly with me.
Having spent most of my career in the
corporate space, I really see the value
that this kind of thinking would bring to
the workplace.
I think it would bring leaders and
employees closer together.
I think it would empower employees to take
a much more accountability for their
ability to influence and impact within
their roles.
I also think it just opens up
possibilities versus sort of restraining
you within sort of, you know, the
familiar, the safe, may I say.
But when you create an environment where
you are comfortable with not knowing,
where you gain, you actually, that not
knowing actually sparks that curiosity,
that bringing people in who also have,
want to play a role in finding solutions
and results and answers.
I just, I just, I just, I just love the
positivity of that.
I also love this notion of SOAR.
Soar is just even the concept of it is
uplifting.
It's, it's about propelling you forward.
Um, and I, I just, it brings to mind
something that I experienced in my career.
I was tasked with the expansion and those
are people who've, you know, been in some
of my workshops are familiar with this
story.
So I, I asked you to bear with me, but I
was tasked with a mine expansion.
Someone who has had no experience
whatsoever in the operations component of
mining or anything to do with the
geotechnical elements of, of the mining
sphere.
And when I got past my initial terror
with, uh, the Herculean task that I was,
that, that, that was, I felt was foist
upon me.
I actually looked at it as go back to
what, you know, and what, you know, is
bringing people together, laying out what
we're trying to do as a collective.
And everybody has a voice at this table.
And because I don't know what I don't
know, I have to trust you who I've brought
into my, my circle and collectively we
bring it forward.
The result was normally a mine expansion
takes about five years.
We did it in 18 months.
Wow.
And I'm convinced that we did it because
we were asking questions.
People would say, well, because we've
always done it that way.
And I'd say, well, okay, I need a bit more
than we've always done it that way.
Why have we always done it that way?
What were we get, what was gained?
And then we would, there were things that
we had always done that we decided, you
know, we're just not going to do it this
time.
Let's see what happens.
Um, and you know, the world didn't come to
an end, you know, the, the, the, the stars
didn't fall from the sky and we were able
to challenge the way we always approach
things.
But really what it, it allowed me to
realize is excellence is all around us.
Um, you don't have to be an expert in a
specific area to actually be able to ask
questions around why this is the way it
is.
And one of the other things, and I
encourage my audience to really think
about this is if someone who is an expert
can't explain something to you in a way
that makes sense to you, you need to be
asking more questions.
Because anything that we understand
in our world should be able to be
explained to you in a way that even a
non-expert can understand.
It doesn't mean you're going to understand
the intricacies of it, but the concepts
you should be able to understand.
And that was really the only principle
that we had around the table here, all
experts in your area, but you have to be
able to explain your thinking in a way
that the lay person can understand.
And then that empowers us to be
able to weigh in.
And that's what I, I think ties into your
concept of regenerative leadership and
systems thinking and that openness and
humility.
So you bring up a really important point
in that collaboration and congratulations,
by the way, for pulling that one off.
There's a concept called double loop
learning, which means that instead of just
implementing some action and assessing it,
and when it's not where we want it to be,
tweaking it and trying again, you go back
and you challenge your underlying
assumptions, beliefs, and biases.
Now, we, as individuals, we have a hard
time doing this, right?
Because we're, we're all biased.
We're all stuck in beliefs.
It's just the way we are.
It's not good or bad.
But in a collaborative environment that
you're talking about, can we, with trust,
have those conflictual, conflicting
conversations to challenge the underlying
beliefs, to get to what you said was, can
you explain to me why you believe that as
you as expert to be the case?
And you also, as the expert, need to be
open to be challenged, right?
So this is, this is where the, that
generative, caring, deep connection
matters, based on trust and respect.
And I think that it also gets us past what
often happens, which is a competition of
ideas.
Now, let's say that the key leader comes
in with a particular idea or somebody with
power, voice or whatever, money, comes in
with a specific idea.
This is the way we need to do it.
It may not be based on anything other than
their idea.
And, you know, often we have the
competition between ideas with the idea
that those are the only possible ways.
And what happens is we, we miss exactly
what you're talking about, the possible
discovery of many other options.
And it only happens when we can step back
and challenge ourselves and others, that
double loop learning.
And that's, that's not, that's a, that's a
cultural thing we have to develop better.
Yeah.
And I think that's why we have to develop
these regenerative leadership approaches,
because we all have to learn how to do
that better.
And that's where the opportunity comes.
Um, and I really believe this is the time
to do it because the world is not going to
get any less complex.
We have, um, more people and just by based
on sheer numbers, greater complexity.
Uh, and, um, quite frankly, we have a lot
of things we've done built that are doing
the opposite than what they were intended.
And so we really have to, uh, as
Buckminster fully says, find a new model,
build a new model.
Exactly.
Um, because this model is not providing
equitable thriving and that's not bad.
We just have to recognize it and be
willing to move on, uh, move on it, but do
it together.
You know, what you just mentioned brings
to mind a way that we can, in a way
that's non-confrontational, non-debasing
challenge misinformation through that
appreciative inquiry through that.
Okay, help me to understand, um, have you
ever considered other ways of thinking and
why do you reject those?
Like what, you know, what is it about them
that doesn't align with what you've
learned?
Um, have you ever challenged what you've
learned?
You're challenging this scientist.
Have you ever challenged the scientists
that you appear to or the, or the thinker
that you appear to align with?
I think we need to find ways, and this is
not very popular in the EDI space.
So I encourage EDI, uh, practitioners to
embrace, to, to move away from a sense of
righteousness that we may have in what
we're doing and open up to that curiosity
and that willingness to understand more,
why people feel uncomfortable with what
you're promoting, why do people, um, feel
more comfortable rejecting difference and,
um, attaching themselves to their people
who look, think, uh, behave like them,
helping people to address the, the
insecurity that can come from, from that
thinking.
And I think if you deal with those two
things that you mentioned, like, keep it
simple, respect and trust.
If you build trust by having an openness
to a willingness to listen and understand
where someone is coming from.
And if you come from a position of
respecting, even though in your head, it's
like, how can you think that way?
Open yourself to coming from a place of
respecting that person allows you to help
each other on your journey.
So I'm, we, we always end our podcast with
one little question and it's really around
how do you make sure that the fundamental
values that you have are being harnessed
to drive the impact that you want to drive
in, in what you do.
So Marissa, we'll, we'll, we'll end with
that.
It's a big question.
That's a, that's a, that's a loaded
question.
Um, I think, and I think it requires
ongoing reflection, right?
I think you have to, uh, stop.
And again, in this world of distraction
and rapidity, can you stop?
Um, I, I read a book, uh, called thank,
thanks.
Um, I think the author's name was Emmond
and, um, it's about gratitude.
And so one of the things we know that
helps us to be well is to be grateful.
And I started a gratitude journal.
So that's an opportunity to reflect, but I
do think that, um, I've had a lot of
opportunity to reflect over the years on
what I'm doing, why I want to do it.
Uh, and ultimately it comes down not only,
um, starting with self-respect and those
underlying principles, but what is your
individual purpose?
And in your leadership role, what is your
leadership purpose?
Because I think good organizations and
good collaborations work because there's
an alignment, not of purpose built on
principles, agreed, shared principles and
respect, but there's an alignment of the
individual purpose to the shared purpose
and, uh, aspirational goal.
And we don't spend a lot of time doing
that.
So I think for me, uh, those reflections
have been really helpful and getting back
to some other points you made.
Uh, appreciating the sphere of influence
that I have, uh, and trying to operate
within that.
So this is why I think the grassroots, if
you will, the one-on-one, um, approach is
so powerful because if we can build
respect and trust in those one-on-ones and
in our sphere of influence, we become role
models and that arena becomes a role
model.
Um, and it really, you know, it's the old
Margaret Mead quote, never doubt that a
small group of people, um, changed the
world because indeed that's all that did.
We, we, we really, uh, we, we really, uh,
need everybody operating in their sphere
of influence from this strength, from
their assets, from positivity.
Uh, and I, you know, I realized, you know,
uh, a lot more about me, you know, that I
transitioned genders on the job.
And the one thing I learned from that was
that I had an inner strength that I didn't
know until I had to face the world with
who I really was.
Uh, and I want everybody to find their
inner strength.
I want every child to find their inner
strength.
They don't, hopefully don't have to do it
in a way that I had to do it.
But to me, that's the potential
opportunity for every person and for us as
societies and as a global civilization
that I hope we can reach.
Cause I know the world will be a better
place if more people had that opportunity
to reach that potential and to appreciate
the strength that they have within.
Uh, so for me, that reflection regularly
keeps me grounded.
Um, and it's really, really important.
And thank you for the opportunity to be
here with you to reflect more.
I just, I've, I've got chills because to
me, you talk about purpose and you talk,
we've talked about thriving and we've
talked about potential.
And to me, those are the, like, there's
nothing but upside to finding what you
should be doing and doing that.
Creating environments where people thrive
and you can bring your best self to what
you're doing and who you're with.
And achieve your potential so that
everybody benefits.
And Marissa, that's what I think when you
were able to be who you are, that's what
the world has gained.
Why wouldn't we want that world for
everyone?
We should want it for everybody.
We'd be better off.
Absolutely.
We would all be better off.
And I think what we don't realize some
people who sort of want this sort of
homogenous environment is that in fact,
they're holding themselves back.
They're holding themselves back from
achieving their full potential.
So, you know, Marissa, you're in Florida.
I'm here in Montreal.
I wish I could hug you.
I will be hugging you at some point in the
future.
But I just want to thank you for bringing
these concepts to our audience.
I think this is the beginning of a longer
conversation that I think we need to be
having.
And what I hope my audience is taking away
from this is this is not about having
these sort of prescriptive answers.
It's about how you approach things, the
way you're coming at the world, the work
that you do, the interactions that you
have.
And you're more powerful than you think.
And the thing is, and harnessing that
brings other people into that power.
And it's just so it's inspirational for me
to hear.
And just having this conversation has
inspired me even more.
So I want to thank you, Marissa, for
joining us.
I want to thank our listeners for tuning
in.
We need you to help us to spread this
message.
The Sync Podcast will feature other
like-minded people such as Marissa.
Please click on all the relevant links.
We will send those when we send out the
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And like and subscribe to the podcast so
that we can build our audience and build
this movement.
This is a movement towards a better
future.
So thanks.
Thank you again.
What an honour.
It's been great.
Be well and take good care.
You too, always.
Thanks for tuning in to The Sync Podcast.
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