Welcome to the Sync Podcast, where we
explore the value of an inclusive approach
in the way we think,
work, and engage with our communities and
workplaces.
We show that the meaning of inclusion,
contrary to what many may believe, is
about leaving no one
behind.
Each episode features candid conversations
with thought leaders and change makers,
driving
inclusive initiatives across various
sectors.
Our goal is to create a community of
inclusive-minded
individuals and organizations committed to
collective and sustainable impact.
I'm your
host, Nicole Piggott, and our guest today
is Sheryl Johnson, Chief Storyteller and
Jedi Strategist.
With 25-plus years in strategic marketing,
Sheryl has shaped inclusive narratives for
brands like
Intuit, Kellogg, Craft, Kids Help Phone,
and Manulife.
Now leading strategic insight marketing
and working with AndHumanity, she helps
purpose-driven organizations tell stories
that build trust,
belonging, and impact.
Welcome, Sheryl.
So I want to welcome you, Sheryl, to the
Sync Podcast.
I've been really looking forward to this
conversation with you because you and I
have had many a conversation about what
it's like to move
through the echelons of the corporate
world, being someone from an
underrepresented group, and
particularly being a Black woman, in a
space that's not necessarily designed for
Black women to advance.
And we've had lots of conversations about
what it means, what you've had to
overcome, and I think it's important
to share with some of our audience so that
they can benefit from our experience.
So we're pretty cas here at the Sync
Podcast, and so I want us to be a fairly
free-flowing
conversation, but let's start with going
back in the Wayback Machine.
And let's learn a little bit
about who you are.
I know who you are, but I'd love my
audience to know who you are.
And a little,
talk to us about your incredible career.
Like, you've moved through major companies
in the corporate
world to go on to starting your own
marketing firm, Strategic Insight
Marketing, and working with
AndHumanity.
And you've really made sort of one of
these shifts that we've made, both of us
have made
in this space, like from doing, you know,
our professional work in the marketing
world, and then,
or in the professional world, and then
merging that with EDI and how that has
played a role in
shaping who you are.
Thank you so much, Nicole.
Thank you for the opportunity to speak
with you today.
And
yes, it feels like this is now recording
conversations that we have had many, many
times over the few years
that we've been working together and that
we've known each other.
My journey began as a dark-skinned Black
girl, um, daughter to two powerful, wise,
Bajan immigrant parents, older sister to
the smartest, most fierce, and courageous
woman I know.
We grew up in Scarborough.
I didn't even know that I was a
dark-skinned anything until the day I was
playing outside
of my house, and a little white boy threw
a rock at me and called me n*****.
At four years old, I still remember
that day.
Didn't know what it was, I didn't know
what it was, what it meant, but I, it was
said with such venom
that I knew it was bad.
Mm-hmm.
As I grew up in a two-parent household, we
owned our own house, we had
two cars, and to the point where I went
to, my sister and I went to some of the
best schools in
Canada.
And yet, whether I was buying my first
car, negotiating my mortgage at 25, or
leading a
cross-functional team, in many ways I was
reminded that I was less than.
Exceptional, well-spoken,
not good enough, that I spoke funny, I
guess I have a Toronto accent, but
throughout my years on this
planet, coping with not being the norm or
the default in Canada informs how I moved
through the world.
Wow.
You've triggered a number of thoughts for
me.
I just want to sort of share with you,
with the
audience, some things that Sheryl and I
share.
First of all, we're both the daughters of
incredible Bajan.
I have a Bajan parent.
She has two Bajan parents.
And for those of you who don't know, Bajan
are people
who hail from Barbados, which is an
incredible island that is actually led by
an incredible
woman leader who is a trailblazer and
absolutely a force to be reckoned with on
the leadership front.
So please do your homework and look it up.
But, Mia Motley,
um, but when you talked about the first
time you heard the N word, the first time
you were called
that, I, it brought to mind, I had chills
because I remember the first time I was
called that.
And I
think every black person can remember the
first time they were called that.
And, and as a child,
how your world sort of shifts that safe
space that a child is for everyone or for
most kids,
all of a sudden your, your safety is, it's
just shaken and you're, you're redefining
the world that
you thought you occupied.
It's just all of a sudden, not that world.
And, and so when you said that,
it really brought back those memories of
that, that moment where I sort of thought,
Oh, okay.
And the irony is it's often with kids that
you played with or who played in your
entourage that
all of a sudden they're throwing this
back.
And so lesson number one, for those of you
who are listening,
when I talk about this in workshops that I
give, the way you raise your kids and the
things you say,
and the things that you do speak much
more volumes than the things that you say.
So you'll
tell your kids, Oh, you treat everybody
the way you want to be treated.
You will, you will, you live by
the golden rule, all of these things that
we'll tell our kids, but they'll see the
way you behave.
And these kids don't come up with this
stuff on their own.
They are emulating the things that they
see.
And it has profound impacts on other
children around them.
So that's listen, we're two women who
are not in our twenties, who we can still
vividly remember when that happened.
So that's what, you know,
lesson to parents.
Think about the way you behave in front of
your kids and the lessons you are
teaching your children and the impact it
has on other children.
So thanks so much, Sheryl, because
that was really raw and honest.
And that's folks, that's the kind of
conversation we're going to have
today.
Well, I, I, I also think that the, the,
when we think about our journeys and
where, you know,
this conversation starts, it does start
with that.
I'll call it the demarcation point, the
point,
you know, no black child grows up or is
born.
I'm black.
I'm different.
You know, no child grows up.
I'm white.
I'm, I'm the default.
I'm the, you're taught that.
Yeah.
And whether it's taught as a
positive or a negative.
And then when you grow up in a household
and I mentioned my parents because
I did not get here on my own.
So when I went home and I was crying, I
didn't even know what I was
crying about.
I just knew that that word was bad.
And the way that it was thrown at me was
negative.
And I still remember my mom's response to
that.
And that changed.
I don't think it changed everything
for me, but it basically didn't allow me
to go down that path of, Oh, I guess I am
less than,
I guess I am this thing that I was just
called.
My mother said to me, and she still says
it to me
today.
You are not what they say you are.
You are who you are.
Wow.
I'll never forget that.
And she
still says it to me.
I'm like you said, we're not in our
twenties anymore and I'm blessed to still
have my mother.
And she still says that.
So I would also say to your listeners, you
have the ability
and you have the power to be able to shift
that narrative for your child.
Yes.
And to ensure that
what they say about you is not who you
are.
And that will be what you carry throughout
your entire life,
whether you're in leadership, whether you
are in school, whether you are leading a
small group,
a large group, or whether or not you are,
you know, basically just in a group of, of
friends,
you are not what they say you are.
So the power, second lesson folks, like the
power we have as parents
to shape the impact of the world on our
kids.
Like we, we like to act like we're
impotent and,
and, you know, we can't control all those
things that are happening out there.
But that moment was
so crucial to you, like the way your
mother handled.
And I bet you, she didn't even consciously
know
how, I think she did probably know how
important it was that she handled that
moment.
I too have a
similar reaction.
My mother was a lioness.
I still refer to her as a lioness.
Unfortunately,
she's not with us anymore.
But my girls would still remember her as a
lioness.
And I felt that
warm hug of, of safety that my mother was,
and that she would fight for me, and break
down barriers for
me and make sure that the world that I was
able to achieve my full potential and no
way that anything
was going to stand in my way.
And I really felt that in that moment as
well.
So yes, as parents, we,
our reaction is important and how we
handle that is important.
And I encourage people of underrepresent,
you know, parents of underrepresented
groups of kids from underrepresented
groups to take the time
to prepare for that moment.
Because the moment's coming, if it hasn't
come already, it will come.
And it may even come that they come to
you, when they're not children anymore.
And they're finally
confronted with that moment or made a way
or become aware of that moment, and need
that sense of security.
So let's shift gears here, because we've
both been leaders in the corporate world.
And we all know if
we're going to be really honest with
ourselves that we, when we know what the
world considers to be
the image of a leader, it doesn't look
anything like the two women you have in
front of you right now.
So it's usually white, it's usually
someone who is a heterosexual, usually a
man, and cisgender.
So we, that's the default of the image of
being a leader.
And so those are all, those are one, those
are the, some of the hurdles that we have
to confront if
we're going to penetrate that leadership
space.
But we've also gotten these push and pull
narratives that surround what needs to
happen in order to create space for people
who don't fit that,
that profile of leadership.
And one sort of school of thought, and
I've had debates with my friends in
this space about how do you gain the
skills to better navigate that world.
So how do you
adapt?
How do you, you know, become someone who
can play in that space, but nothing about
that space
changing.
That space needs to stay the way it is,
and you just get the skills so that you
can better
navigate that space.
So that's one sort of school of thought.
And then the other school of thought is
what needs to be different so that you can
actually bring people into that space and
actually allow them
to be their best selves in that space and
actually benefit from the value of
difference, difference
brings to the workplace.
Like, I mean, if we're all going to just
look different, but behave exactly the
same way.
Do we really gain the result, the benefits
of diversity?
So what are your
thoughts on this?
Like, because I know you and I've had
chats about this.
You know what, Nicole, it is unfortunate.
We exist in a culture that requires this
to be an important topic
in 2025.
Leadership, in my opinion, is about
inspiring others, building and nurturing
talent, engaging those around us to
achieve incredible professional and
personal goals.
To answer these questions, a Black woman
leader, perhaps head of HR, perhaps
corporate DEI,
social services, or
perhaps education is well accepted.
And perhaps leadership is not as
questioned, still questioned, but not as
questioned, because it's where they fit.
Mm hmm.
But if they were the CEO of a Fortune 500
company, a president of an Ivy League
school,
or a pilot, or a surgeon, the latest quip
is that they are a DEI hire.
But why?
Because white, cisgender, heterosexual men
are seen as the default, and everyone else
doesn't really belong.
System change needs to happen to change
the default.
Challenge the assumption that everyone is
surprised to see a woman of colour as the
CEO of Pepsi.
Equity deserving communities will continue
to be seen as outliers until the default
is no longer the default.
So is there an answer towards, you know,
do you change yourself?
Do you change the system?
How do you work within a system that sees
you as another?
It really, the challenge here is that we
have to keep pushing to ensure that we are
changing that default.
That when we say leader, that what comes
to mind of those young people coming up
through university
right now, those young people in
preschool, that when you show different
experiments and examples,
you show little boys and girls, and you
ask them, what does a pilot look like?
Their picture of a pilot is different.
It is a woman, it can be a person of
colour, it can be anything, it can be
anyone.
So working within a system right now that
has this default, you will always be
pushing against the other.
You will always be pushing against, do you
belong here?
And then, because that is the default of
where we are right now,
in order to continue to move forward, yes,
we have to find ways to work within a
system that sees us as other, until that
system changes.
That is such a profound comment, because
what I'm hearing from you is there's
almost a duality of, in this moment,
we're living in sort of a duality or a
paradoxical sort of situation, because
you're right, I am a profound believer
that you can only change from within.
If the best way to change is from within.
If I'm sitting on the sidelines yelling at
you about let me in, you should need to do
this to let me, you know, I just don't
have the power to change.
But in the inside, it's harder to ignore
me.
And in order to get inside, you're right,
you need to navigate and work within the
systems that currently exist in order to
change those systems.
But you need to be mindful that the goal
needs to remain that the systems do need
to change.
So it's yes, get in, work to navigate to
get into those systems, but then how do we
adapt and change those systems.
The few things came to mind as you were
speaking, one of them that I talk about a
lot with with folks and and in the
workshops that we do is around,
we also and I remember even talking to my
mom, who was a trailblazer, she moved to
the senior levels of organizations at the
World Bank and the IMF at Bank of
Montreal.
And.
And.
We also can be guilty of normalizing the
default.
And because the default has been the
default for so long, knowing what can be
different, even knowing ourselves well
enough to know what parts of yourselves
are not real, are really you just
normalizing something that doesn't really
fit.
I mean, it's not real fit, but I've just
made it fit and I've gotten so adept at
making it fit that it's almost become, you
know, rote.
And so we have to be a lot more aware and
mindful of the things that we have
normalized to adapt to the default.
And then the second thing is the goal also
needs to be that we are disrupting systems
in a positive way that lets everybody in.
So there's no sense that it's disrupting
to only adapt to one group or to certain
groups, but it's really so that everyone
feels that there's a space for them within
that within the workplace.
And it's it's work to do that.
So it's.
And that's system challenge.
Yeah, that is system change.
It's policy change.
It's, you know, when culture.
Culture.
Culture.
When people talk about the, you know, talk
about DEI in a negative state where it
seems like there's a perspective that it
favours.
It's not about favouring.
It's not about favouring.
It's about opening.
Exactly.
It's opening the doors because there are
those who believe, well, the doors are
open.
You can apply if you'd like.
Go ahead, apply.
But if nobody of colour is at the
leadership level, I think that suggests
that you're not ready for that.
Does it?
Or does it actually mean that the door is
not even invisible, but it is closed to
some folks?
Yes.
And so DEI is really about opening all the
doors, opening the doors to change the
system.
And as much in your head as that
candidate, as in the person who is
considering you.
So opening the doors for us in our heads,
that's a possibility for me.
And that requires people to be able to see
people like them in those roles.
Otherwise, they just don't see themselves
in those spaces.
And then it requires you to open your mind
to, am I really, am I really open minded?
Am I really considering the capabilities
of this person?
Or are there biases that are influencing
the way I'm perceiving that individual?
So the biases create those closed doors.
Absolutely.
And they, and, and, and people don't
necessarily see that.
They're like, no, the doors are open.
The doors are open.
The amount of people that I did you go to,
what school did you go to?
Or what clubs do you belong to?
Or do you golf or do you play?
It's so funny because the, it, the amount
of people who say to me, I look at the
qualities
and the, the competencies of the
individual.
And I'll say, listen, are you a robot?
Because unless you're a robot, nobody just
looks at competencies and qualities of the
individual.
The first of all, the world qualities is
riddled with bias.
What is quality to you versus quality to
another competencies.
How many times do you look at a competency
that you think that that person should
have because of who they are versus a
competency that, that you would, you don't
think is necessary because you don't
really see that competency being ascribed
to a woman, et cetera.
So I've had people who said, oh, you're
too direct.
Have you ever told my colleagues, my male
colleagues are too direct?
Never.
But all of a sudden, Nick's too direct.
You're too, you know, you cut to the chase
too much.
So it leads me to my next question,
because you're actually the one who, you
know, just for those who don't know me, I
did most of my education in French.
So I sometimes there's words in English
that I'm less familiar with.
So Sheryl has been part of my education on
my lexicon in the EDI space.
And she's the one who introduced me to the
term code switching.
And it was like an aha moment for me
because it put a label on things that we
did.
I did even unconsciously to fit into that
first scenario that we talked about that
default to fit into the default.
So talk a little bit about what code
switching is and as a black professional
or anyone from a marginalized group that's
trying to navigate this dominant system,
what it means for us emotionally, what it
means for us professionally, the self, the
constant self monitoring.
So, share with us.
This is one of my favorite topics.
Um, so it, it is heavy lifting, I will
say, but it's interesting living in this
space.
Many of us don't even recognize we're
doing it.
Here's an example.
I speak to my sister, um, every day, every
morning on her way into work, we, she's in
the car.
Um, I work from home, so I'm at my desk.
So we talk every single morning and it's
just us talking.
Her husband isn't there.
The kids aren't there.
You know, we're, it's just us talking.
So the other day she was walking, uh, into
her office.
And instantly she ran into somebody that
from the office and instantly her voice
tone changed.
Her laugh changed.
Her words changed.
And when she came back, I was laughing so
hard.
She asked, what are you laughing at?
I said, you code switch so quickly.
It was like a light switch.
And her response was really, I didn't even
notice.
That is the professional stance we all
take.
But when we're among our communities, the
laughter is deeper.
The language is warmer.
The language is warmer.
And it's all familiar.
Not sure we even know we're doing it
anymore because living in an environment,
in a culture, in a society where you walk
onto the bus.
Oh, hello.
Hi.
Hello.
How's everybody doing?
When you run into somebody from your
community.
Hey, you do the DAP.
You do that.
You do the head shake.
You do the things that just come
naturally.
So this idea of code switching, living in
Canada, living in our culture and in our
society, you learn as a child what's
appropriate, what language is appropriate,
what body language is appropriate through
school.
When you get home, you shed all of that.
When you're in amongst your friends in
your community, you shed all of that.
But I think we do it now so unconsciously.
That when we get home, we are exhausted.
Yeah, it is exhausting.
And we don't know why.
Why am I so exhausted?
Like, fine, I had an eight hour day.
I had a 12 hour day.
Everybody has their days.
Why is it exhausting?
We're doing it to fit in because as soon
as a word slips out, you can see it in the
eyes of those around you.
If they're not from your community, not
from your culture, what did you just say?
Did that just slip out?
So you learn that it's kind of the, you
know, the way West Indian mothers
sometimes say, it's like, I'm not one of
your little friends.
Yeah, the way that you operate outside of
the home and the way that you operate
inside the home, the way that you operate
with that warmth and familiarity is not
the way you operate in the office.
And you learn that and it becomes innate.
And it becomes innate.
And it's that light switch.
And I laugh so hard because my sister who
works in an office works.
She's a leader in her in her space.
She didn't even realize she was doing it.
Well, that's the thing that a lot of
people probably don't realize that we have
a term in our family that we call it house
business.
Like that's house business and house
business means that's not for public
consumption that stays in the vault at
home and it's not for everyone to hear.
And that's kind of what code switching is.
So a few things came to mind to me when
you were talking, you and I have talked
about the torture we went through as kids
getting our hair straightened.
The default for professional appropriate
hair in our society is straight hair.
And the result is that, and for those of
you who don't know, this is an education
for some of our listeners who are not from
the Black community and who didn't grow up
in the Black community in the 70s.
A lot of us grew up with literal poison
being put on our heads and we have cancer
cases.
As a result, there's class action lawsuits
against these these manufacturers of
straight hair straightening products
because they were filled with lye and they
were literally poisoning us.
And I used to have like burn marks in my
head.
I would have like literally sores as a
result.
I would dread the days it was like you
knew it was coming up because your hair
was getting kinkier.
It was getting back to its usual texture.
And you knew that the day was coming soon
when you were going to have to get your
hair straightened.
And the day I decided to wear my natural
hair at work and let my hair grow out and
wear my natural hair.
I'm sure a lot of you think what the heck
you have to think about that.
It was a big decision.
It was a cataclysmic big decision.
I agonized over before I finally decided
to do it and make no mistake.
I did it when I was in the seniors, the
senior levels of an organization.
I was a VP.
I was relatively safe and I was the one
who was making the rules so I could decide
that I was going to let my hair grow out.
But, you know, I remember my mother
straightening my hair.
Everyone had straight hair.
My mother is half is Scottish and her hair
is was was relatively straight.
But I remember the whole process of
straightening hair.
So straightening hair is one of those
things.
I also remember growing up and getting
into the workplace.
And the first day I went, met my mother
after work and I was wearing pants.
And my mother said, oh, we're casual
today.
So for you guys who, you know, think
wearing pants, you don't, you know, I
mean, you're stuck with your uniform, too,
because you've got to wear your suits and
your pants to work also.
But wearing pants, there was a time when
it was pretty radical for you to be going
to work in pants.
I worked in the financial industry and we
all wore suits and those suits were skirt
suits.
They weren't pants suits.
And it was a big deal when you were
wearing pants.
So that's another code switching thing
that we as women had to do in order to fit
into the workplace.
So it's it is exhausting.
It's it is exhausting.
And there's a part of you that feels a bit
like we talk about imposter syndrome, but
we often talk about imposter syndrome when
we shouldn't be feeling like an imposter.
But in this situation of code switching,
we actually are imposters.
We're not being ourselves.
We are fitting your narrative and the and
this, you know, this is so pernicious that
the skin bleaching industry in the
southern hemisphere is rampant.
There are so many countries where people
are dying because they're bleaching their
skin to fit into that narrative of what
the default is.
So that's how dangerous and how deep
seated code switching is.
But it is exhausting.
And thanks for teaching me the term.
Oh, yeah.
Well, again, I think it comes back to, you
know, naming things, right?
Yeah, basically, it is something that we
all went through.
We all had that common experience.
But what's the term?
And once you put a term on, it's like, oh,
that's what it is.
I went through that, too, or I still feel
that I wanted to just touch on the suit
and the clothing for a moment.
Because in very recent media, the idea of
the power, I'll call it the power of the
suit and the power of clothing, because it
is about code switching, but it's also
telegraphically telling others around you,
do you belong or don't you belong?
Yeah.
And so, you know, again, I'm sure I'm not
saying anything that your listeners are
not already aware of.
But when President Zelensky went to the
White House.
Perfect example.
And he was basically berated.
If you didn't see if you if you just saw
what happened in the White House, take a
look at what happened before they got into
the Oval Office.
The first thing 47 said, oh, you dressed
up for us today.
Exactly.
So the president of a country who is
literally in a war fighting for his
country shows up and he's not wearing a
suit.
And he's not pretending to be anything
other than who he is.
But that automatically triggered to the
power brokers around him.
You're other.
You're less than.
And you're not showing deference to our
station.
You're not part of us.
You're not part of us.
You're not part of us.
How dare you come in here in, you know,
your clothes.
How dare you be yourself.
How dare you be yourself was the message.
And yet the special employee who shows up
with chainsaws can show up in a
sweatshirt, can show up in a in a baseball
hat.
That's fine.
And with a kid on his shoulders.
That is power.
So the idea of wearing a suit or not
wearing a suit depends on who it is and
who holds power.
So code switching is important only
because it helps us better understand
that.
And I say it's important only because if
you in the world of power dynamics to fit
in, you code switch.
Yes.
To be yourself is seen as being a rebel
because you're not code switching.
You're showing up in sweatshirt in a
baseball hat.
It's a privilege, Sheryl, of power.
Oh my goodness.
I felt I could have my natural hair when I
was in a position of power.
Absolutely.
I would never have contemplated when I was
in a more junior role.
And I want to speak to a really important
point is that look around you and I
guarantee you that a lot of people that
are in your sphere, it's more junior roles
are not feeling or, or if you're doing a
great job as a leader, they are feeling
that they can be their authentic selves.
But ask yourself, do people, do people
look, are there a de facto uniform in this
office?
Is there a, you know, a, a pressure to fit
into a mold?
Mm hmm.
So that's really, it's a really, really
telling comment and a great example.
And so you and I have also talked about in
the context of code switching, the
microaggressions that we all experience as
we move up the echelons and as we
navigate, frankly, society, but also the
corporate world.
Um, and the danger also of normalizing
those microaggressions, like it's just the
way things are, you know, people say those
things and we just sort of, you know,
endure, but let's help the audience to
understand what a microaggression is and
the impact it's had on you and can have on
others.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
So, um, a microaggression, I, before there
was a term for it, I called them pokes.
So, you know, an example of that, and I,
I, I would say up until maybe five, six
years ago, I still heard.
You're so well spoken.
Hmm.
Where are you from?
What school did you go to?
How I addressed those pokes in the past.
And how I address them now, very
different.
The uncomfortable.
By putting others at ease by chuckling.
It's like, Oh, thank you.
You're so well spoken.
Thank you.
While clenching my teeth.
Yeah.
And now what I say is you're so well
spoken.
What did you mean by that?
Why are you asking?
As we mature as social beings.
We can respond in parallel.
And not under interrogation.
And I consider it interrogation.
Again, this is a level of power.
The concept of you're so well spoken.
Relative to what?
Relative to who?
What, what are you comparing the way that
I speak to?
The subtext is, I didn't expect you to be
that well spoken.
So it's, it's, it's not your well spoken
period.
It's right.
I didn't expect you to be that well
spoken.
And even if that's not what you think you
intended or that you legitimately
intended,
given the world that Sheryl and I
navigate, that's often the subtext that
we're dealing with.
So that's how it lands.
And the same as where are you from?
Yeah.
Oh, I mean, the, the, the, the underlying
is that you, you, you're not white.
And therefore you're not from here.
Mm hmm.
You've come from someplace else.
Yep.
So again, my response before would have
been, oh no, I was born and raised in
Toronto.
I'm, I'm Canadian.
But where are you really from?
Oh, now, now my question is my, again, in
parallel, because it's, to me, I still
feel
that's interrogation.
Mm hmm.
You speak well, you must be from
someplace.
How did you learn to speak so well?
So now it's, why do you ask?
I'm not being rude.
I, you may have a very legitimate question
to ask and that's absolutely fine, but I
want
to now, and, you know, open the door to a
broader conversation, which is I'm
challenging your default
thinking.
Exactly.
That the way I speak or where I'm from
surprises you.
Yes.
So I, I want to ask the question, why are
you asking?
Because then you're forced to think about,
why am I asking?
Yeah.
Yeah.
You're, you look different.
So you must be from, nobody's ever going
to say that, but it's charging them.
But you are going to get them thinking
about.
That's the, that's where the maturity in
social maturity happens where you get to
hear it so
often.
And it's like, oh my God, I am not going
to answer this question again, but I'm
also advancing
the culture and language and default
belief that why can't I be from Canada?
Yeah.
Why can't I speak with a Toronto accent?
I travel around the world and people quite
afraid have asked me if I'm from Chicago.
Oh, I get everything.
Yeah.
Chicago.
Okay.
Sure.
But also around the world.
Or I get told I don't have an accent.
Yeah.
You don't have an accent.
There's no such thing.
What does that even mean?
What does that even mean?
But even that around the world, I it's
challenging the fact that they're black
Canadians.
Oh yeah.
I would assume you're from the US or, you
know, you're in a business.
So I guess you're from the US.
No, there, there are people of colour in
Canada.
And I don't even know if 47 knows that,
but anyways, that's a whole other topic.
But it's funny you should say that.
You feel like saying this is Canada.
I know you think you, what you look like
is Canada, but this is Canada too.
And that's sort of the message that people
need to get.
My sister gets very frustrated by that
because she was born in London, Ontario.
And she gets asked that.
And like, and people, when you keep
asking, where are you really from?
Where, where are your parents from?
Do you want us to just tell you what you
want to hear?
Do you want to hear our antecedents?
Is that now my father speaks a number of
indigenous languages.
Sometimes he bursts out, busts out in
Ojibwe.
And, you know, because at the end of the
day, all of us are settlers here with the
exception of indigenous communities.
And so kindly sit down and recognize that
this is Canada.
Canada, that is Canada, you know, that
Canada is a mosaic, as is the US.
Just a little note to you all.
You're all a mosaic as well.
You too, UK and everywhere else, the most
everywhere else in the world.
So, yeah, those are microaggressions.
Those are the things that we deal with
that actually can be very damaging and
frustrating.
You almost hold your breath waiting for
it.
You know, when it's coming, you can see
the, the lead in that it, the, the
person's going to ask the question.
And I know they think they're super
original, but you've had that question 500
times.
Like you've, it's the, it's the question
that you, you get, like, are you, your
education, your, I got, you were raised,
your parents raised you really well.
Well, what do you mean?
What do you mean?
Of course, my parents raised me well.
Well, anyone who knows a West Indian
parent, I could tell you, they're still
calling their parents, ma'am and, and sir.
So we don't have issues with how we raise
our kids in the West Indies.
So, so we've talked about the
politicization of hair.
And what's considered professional hair.
And I actually had an assistant who worked
for a major company here in Canada, and
she was going on a business, her first
business trip to Toronto.
And her boss said to her, and she had
braids in her hair.
And her boss said to her, so are you going
to, before you go to Toronto, are you
going to do something about your hair?
Which of course, is a, both a
microaggression and encouraging code
switching.
And so I talked about my natural hair and
the challenges and the, the, the big soul
searching I had to do before I switched.
So, and I've also had just, I'll finish on
one other note.
I had a client who I saw her and she had
beautiful twists in her hair.
And anyone who knows what twists are, like
it's where black women will twist their
hair into sort of ringlets.
And she had twists in her hair.
And I said, Oh, your hair is gorgeous.
And I spent, she normally wore a wig.
And I said, I, why don't you wear your
hair like this more often?
She said, Oh, I'll wear that with you, but
they're not ready for that at work.
Like I can't wear this work.
And she works for a crown corporation.
So women's natural hair, black women's
natural hair is associated with
unprofessional hair.
Talk a little bit about that.
The crown act in the U S.
Yes.
Perfect.
For those of you who are listening, who,
who might be thinking, well, just wear
your hair any way that you want.
Who's telling you to change your hair?
Society and culture has told us to change
our hair.
The crown act.
And I please do your research on this one.
I'm not the legal expert on it, but what I
can tell you is that they had to enact an
actual law to prevent organizations from
discriminating against black women for
wearing their natural.
natural hair, the hair that grows out of
their head.
Yeah.
So the way that your hair comes out of
your head was grounds for you not getting
a job.
And when you do look up the crown act.
Take a look at the date.
Yeah.
Of when that crown act.
It's not the 1960s.
It's not even the 1970s.
It's not even the 1980s.
I'll tell you, it's not even the 1990s.
So policing black people's hair is a part
of the power structure.
It is a part of, do you belong or don't
you belong?
So if I'm going to accept you in a
leadership role, you got to straighten
your hair.
Yep.
Or your hair has to be perceived as
straightened.
Hence the wigs, hence the weaves, hence
the, and for every little black girl who
grew up in a black household, because your
mothers were told that as well.
And so they're helping to prepare you for
life outside this house.
If you're, if I, if I were to, you know,
pull down your ear, right.
So again, that is something in our culture
that almost every black girl without me
explaining will understand, or the pulling
down your ear and.
Yep.
The cringe.
That's the hot.
And hold still, hold still.
Literally for those who don't, are not
aware.
Before you could, um, chemicalize your,
your child's hair, because they were too
young.
What was absolutely, um, acceptable.
Was to put a hot.
Comb.
Iron comb.
It is a hot iron comb on the element of
the stove.
Till it was red hot.
And then take your daughter.
Usually it's your daughter's hair.
Before the age of 13, because usually
that's when they were, you know, parents
basically said, okay, you can put the
poisons in your hair.
But until then, we're going to straighten
your hair this way.
And guess what?
Our mothers were not stylists.
So every now and then you would literally
get burnt.
Yep.
And because it was part of our culture to
straighten your hair.
Oh yeah.
Oh yeah.
No one wanted to hear you.
You can hear your hair sizzling.
You can hear the smell.
You can smell like all of this.
If you're from a black household, it's
like, this is bringing back hair.
Yep.
But why?
But why?
Why did we go through all of this?
Our mothers were not trying to punish us.
No.
Or torture us.
No.
They were literally trying to prepare us
for the world outside of those doors.
They were trying to give us the best
chance to succeed in the world outside of
those doors.
And part of that was sitting there in a
torture chamber to have your hair pressed.
And you literally were this, the amount of
times, and they'd hold, the minute you
knew they were holding the ear down, you
were like, oh, here we go.
Here we go.
And in like, you, no kid grew up without
at least being burned once, but burned
once you were lucky because most of us
were burned plenty of times.
Okay.
Plenty of times in one pressing and think
you got your hair pressed at least once a
week.
So that was once a week, like you knew it
was coming up on a Saturday or a Sunday
before you started school.
For church.
And you would get ready.
You'd be outside playing and you'd be
hiding.
Like, don't, don't let them know where I'm
playing so that I don't get called in to
come get my hair pressed.
So yeah, that's part of the, the black
experience.
So true.
And then you would, I still remember my
grandmother screaming at me because I had
the, the, the gall to play after church.
Oh, and so my hair was here.
So you were sweating.
And then.
Oh, no girl.
How dare you play?
No.
Because now I have to do your hair again
before you go to school.
Exactly.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
You weren't allowed to move.
The hair had to stay perfect for Monday.
Oh my gosh.
Well, Sheryl, this is such a hoot.
Um, but before we close, we always ask
this one question of our.
Participants, our guests.
How do you make sure that.
In who you are today in the professional
work that you do.
How do you make sure that the work you do
is aligned with your values that you're
delivering that impact.
And that you're living your truth in the
work that you do now.
Hmm.
I love this question, Nicole.
And I appreciate you asking this.
This is.
I had to think about this one a little bit
more.
Sure.
Um, but you know what?
I'm going to answer that by.
A simple term that I have started to
recognize and practice every single day,
and that is giving space.
I've learned that that rapid fire answer
response demanding attention is not
aligned with my values.
It is something we grew up with through
corporate that, you know, you're being
asked a question.
You better have the answer.
You better have all your binders ready to
answer right away.
If you're, you know, on virtual, it's
like, Oh, somebody asked me a question.
I better be able to respond right away.
I've learned to be comfortable with
silence.
I've learned to be comfortable with a
pause, leaving space for responses or
concluding discussions to be picked up at
another time.
Speed is no longer my currency.
Accuracy and thoughtfulness is.
Hmm.
So, so really, I love that because the,
the humbleness it takes to be able to say,
I'm just going to, I'm not, I don't have
the answers.
And I could tell you folks, if we did, we
would not be in the space that we're the
place that we're in right now as a world
so nobody has the answers.
So I love that you've the, the privilege
you've given yourself to say, I just let
me just explore.
Let me listen.
Let me hear.
Let me learn.
Let me learn.
Let me learn.
So, well, Sheryl, I want to just thank
you.
Thank you.
We share so many experiences, like
listening to you talk is just like a
mirror into my world, both being children
of the West Indian parents and our, you
know, our navigation of the corporate
world and our, even our personal
experiences as kids growing up.
So I really appreciate you being so honest
and candid in this conversation, and I
hope you'll come back because we need to
continue the conversation.
And I just want to tell my listeners,
listen, look out for Sheryl will have her
coordinates when we, we post this on
YouTube, so that you too can reach out to
this incredible woman and benefit from her
expertise.
Um, so I just want to thank you again,
Sheryl, it's great to have you on The
Sync.
Well, thank you, Nicole, and, and if I may
just, um, providing a little bit of space
to you and gratitude to you and your team
for creating this space.
It is so needed.
It, it always has been needed and even
more so now is needed.
So I want to thank you and your team for
creating this space, creating the
opportunity for voices to be heard.
And quite frankly.
Speaking with you, having the conversation
back and forth reminds me that I'm not
alone in all of this.
Yeah.
So thank you.
Oh, listen, she's being very kind because
one of the inspirations behind this
podcast is Sheryl.
Sheryl.
She's been talking about us doing this for
years.
So I owe a group, a debt to you for just
giving me the courage to jump into this.
So right back at you, honey.
So right back at you.
So thanks again and see you on The Sync.
Thank you.
Thanks for tuning in to The Sync Podcast.
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